Practicing Autonomy with Raúl Zibechi

carla: 00:15

Hello, welcome to Walking with Change. This is carla. And before we get into the show, I want to just say a huge thank you to AwareNess for the fabulous show music and send big love and thanks to Chris Bergman for the wonderful tech and show art. And if you want to support the show, you can do that by subscribing to the show wherever you listen, just hit that little button. Write a review if you feel inclined. Or if you want to become a member you can head over to Patreon forward slash walking with change. You can join for free or become a sustainer, whatever you want. Okay, thanks. And now on to the show. The following episode is a conversation with the brilliant Raúl Zibechi, Raúl is from Uruguay. He is a writer, popular educator, and journalist. He has written numerous books with his newest book being "Constructing Worlds Otherwise". Raúl joined me for the very first episode of Walking With Change, to talk about societies in movement, the many anti-capitalist and anti colonial pathways, pedagogy and children, the duality of resistance and creating autonomy, feminisms, Rojava, and of course Zapatistas. And, we dig into other topics, too. So sit back and enjoy. Thanks for listening. Hello, Raúl! I'm so honored to have you be my first guest on this show. It's all about walking with change. And I can't think of a better guest. Thank you so much. I am definitely giving a homage to the Zapatistas' idea of "asking we walk" with this show. And part of why I'm doing the show is to bring to the fore the questions or the partial questions that are bubbling up today for folks. But before we go on some of those brambly paths of new questions, what I appreciate about your writing, and your voice Raúl, is that you are constantly showing us that not only are autonomous, decolonial, and anticolonial worlds possible, but they are always already happening. And in so many places too -- like you show us in this new book. So for our listeners who may not have encountered your work yet, or at least haven't read the English version of "Constructing Worlds Otherwise", your fabulous new book, could you walk us through some of the reasons for writing it? What's the general scope? And then can you share some of the key concepts and notions in the book? In particular, I'd love to hear you talk about what are societies in movement?

Raúl: 03:02

Thank you, carla, for your questions. I'm not sure if I can respond to all, but I will say that the Zapatista uprisings and other movements show us that the construction of new worlds or new relationships between persons and between humans and nature is not for the future in the long term, is now being, not in a whole country, not in a whole continent, like we thought or we see in the old revolutions. But I can say that in some parts of some countries or regions, there are working, these new relations and based in these relations, they can build clinics and schools and plantations without agrotoxins and so on. And this is important because the traditional overview, the traditional Marxist or Anarchist ideology, says that real revolution, or real change, comes when first you take the power, the state power, in a whole country. When you change, like the feminist movements, when you change the relations in part, or between involving dozens or hundreds of persons. This is not so important for this idea of a social change. Then I think this ideology, this critical thought is focused in the state, the state is for these ideas, the central point of the change. Then when you don't have the control of this state, then you can do nothing. And I respond in this way, feminist movement: I learned as a man from the feminist movement, that you can change the world, changing the situation, the place of the persons, women in this case, in the world, without taking power. And Indigenous peoples make the same as the feminist. They are changing the place of these persons, these communities in the world, with dignity, with emancipation, with constructing some new things, like schools or clinics or health care, without this power. Then for me in 1994, this was a very heavy light. Because I was in the shadow, I come from the 70s, from the revolutionary wave in Latin America, Che Guevara, guerillas, and so on. And I saw that the revolutions in China, in Russia, in other countries, they don't construct the new relations, the New World, they repeat the old problems of the ruling classes. And mostly I see, I saw, that these processes, these revolutionary processes, are in the same way as the old ruling classes. And in this revolution, they birth a new ruling class, similar to the old mandarins in China, or the old apparatchik from the Tsar in Russia, in the old regime. Then this is a structural problem. When you control the state, perhaps the leader is a very nice person, but the other workers under the leader and between the leader and the population, they are working like the NCR regime, no? Culture. And then when these uprisings began, I saw that you can change very important things only without state power. When you catch the state power, the most important attendance is to reproduce the culture, the state culture, and there is only one state culture around the world, it's patriarchal, it's hierarchical, it's colonialist. and so on. Then, for me was very enlightening. No? And I saw that Indigenous peoples know that Vanguard, know that illustrated Vanguard, normally academics and professionals and so on, that leads the populations. Then the population is leading by themselves. This word for me is very beautiful: mandará de siendo. People decide in assemblies or in any different way and the leaders obey these decisions. Then, I think the first 10 years, I was very close and learning from the Zapatista uprising. After this, I began trips around Latin America, sometimes to Europe, and today, last month, to the United States. And then I discovered that Zapatistas are not alone. There are a lot of experiences around a lot of countries, not so big and so intense, and so integral as the Zapatista uprising, that they made a completely new world with new power, with I said, education, care, and also production and justice decisions. But in little ways, you see in Brazil, in Argentina, in Chile, in Bolivia, and Colombia, a lot of countries, similar movements, not inspired necessarily, the Zapatista uprising movement, but inspiring the self history. And you can see the Zapatistas are not alone. And then the last 20 years, I went to a lot of movements, perhaps I knew in 30 years between 500 or 800 organizations. Perhaps, I don't have the exact number. But I know for example, only in Brazil, I know 40 to 50 organizations, another 40 to 50 in Argentina, sometimes little organizations for 20 people, but organizations. And then I see that the differences and different ways they constructed the new worlds, for example, persons for different countries are different, as Indigenous peoples or Black peoples, Afro American movements are working in the same right, but with many differences. No? And so and the human peripheries are also very different, like the Indigenous organizations, but they are resisting capitalists, resisting colonialists, and building, perhaps one movement mostly in education, another movement mostly in ecological ways, and so on, but this is working now in Latin America.

carla: 12:53

Thank you so much. Yeah, that was a really good overview. Like I think it's really important that this distinction from social movements as such, like the way that they're usually spoken of from North America, or from Europe, as like, lobbying the state or trying to reform things or take over the state, like you said, you know, I came across a line in your book where you said, "it is clear that the left is a long way from breaking with patriarchy and colonialism". It seems like it's very much tangled in with hierarchies still, because of social relationships. But it's also about, and you unpack this really well, about the hegemony of modernity, or teleological, historical teleological ideas. And I'm wondering if you could maybe break that open a bit more?

Raúl: 13:41

I learned from the United States experience, the difference between social movements and people, pueblos, in movements. For example, last month, I was in four universities, in different encampments in solidarity with Palestine. This is a social movement. There are groups of the society struggling against the ruling class or against the academic hierarchy for some proposals or demands, good. But if I see the history, I see the Black Panther Party, or the Young Lords in Chicago, or other movements in this period. This is not a social movement. This is a movement of another society. Because they were building clinics and schools, restaurants for the popular kitchens, no? And so on. For the children's breakfast or meals. And the Black Panthers were in the way to be a people, a Pueblo in movement and then their repressions cut this way. But I am speaking about the American experience, it's very interesting because the Black Panthers teach us the double ways to struggle. One way is resisting. Resisting the ruling class, resisting repressions, resisting the police, and so on. And the other part, which is typical from the pueblos in movement, is constructing. Why constructing? Because people living in these areas, people like Fanon spoke of living in the non being zone, the zone where the people that have no rights, and violence is every day coming against them. Then these people have no real education and no real health. No? And they need this. And has not a good meal or good eating with quality. Then the movements have to work to resolve these elementary problems for these people. Then, when the movement works, constructing this care, education, food, and so on, the resistance grows. Then it's a relationship between resisting and creating new worlds. When you resist, you can have enough time and space to build the new. And when you build the new, the resistance will be stronger. And this is a relation between these two points, these two legs, you are walking with two legs resistance and creating, is the most important characteristic of the Pueblos in movements around Latin America. Some people, some pueblos also have a self government. The Zapatistas for example, they have the Juntas de Buen Gobierno, this board thing, there is power in this land. But the Nasas in South Colombia, they had cabildos, which is the Spanish name, is the organization who made the decisions that the communities must work for them. And, this is new, I will talk about a new movement in the Amazon Basin in North Peru. You have now nine autonomous governments, from nine different Amazonian peoples. And in the next year, they think there will be six more, then perhaps in five years you have 15 autonomous governments in Northern Peru. This is a new way. Also in Brazil, there you have more than 40 non governments, more than 40 Autonomous processes eto mark the limits. They are fighting against the mining and corporations that invade the territories. All this movement has self territories, self defense guards, and self authorities. This is a new way to change the world. Territory, self organizations, self power, self defense. And the women in all these territories have a very important role. Because when the people can stabilize the everyday life, then the women are very important in care, in food, and in education. There are spaces for the women, because care is women today around the world. Then the old idea from taking power, organization, in hierarchical form, and the vanguard. And so these ideas are changing now, for a completely new cosmo vision of this change, of this possibility to construct new worlds. The basis is the community and then starting from the community, the people can build different works on different constructions, inspire it, inspire it in communities' logic. For example, one very important characteristic of the communities is the rotation. You never have a permanent leader, the leader must rotate. This is the sabiduría, the old ideas of ancients of the communities: never concentrate power in a leader. Never. I read a lot, a very interesting French anthropologist, Pierre Clastres. He said, 50 years ago, in the Guaraníes peoples, pueblos, he said all the energy from the community is to make sure that the leader has no power. Leader without power. This is not comprehensible for the occidental cosmo vision [the west/europe, etc]. This is everything different. When the leader has power, we have a problem. When the leader concentrates the power, we have a problem. Then we need to work that this leader obeys the community. Because having power is not obeying the community. Self ideas. And then they need to cut this and to return the power to the community. And what's the paper to deliver transmission ideas, resolutions, decisions to make that the common decisions can work. This is the paper, the role of the leader, it's not to fly alone, to construct a power over the community. The leaders, in the really Indigenous communities, the leader works for the community. It's a service. It's not an advantage, it's not a benefit for the leader. It's an obligation and you need to work, not for you, but for the community. This is completely different from what we see in central politics now. And I think this is very interesting, to learn this different kind of politics, because the Indigenous peoples made politics by another community and other politics. The objective of this politic is to reproduce the people, the pueblo, not to change the world. Changing the world is reproducing our culture, our cosmo vision, our form of everyday life. And this is the most important.

carla: 25:09

Here here! Yes! Thank you. I think.... There are so many threads I could weave with what you just said. But I would like to talk about pedagogy a little bit and schooling, because most of my work for the past 25 years has been about creating intergenerational learning alternatives to schools, learning spaces that run in a you know, are very anti colonial. And I definitely, as someone who is interested in haunted pedagogies, but I really liked how you spoke about pedagogy in the book, you might be the first person ever who I was like, hmm, maybe I won't abandon the word entirely. And I think like, connecting it to what you were saying about relationships in the community is, one of the things when I study autonomy, and autonomous communities, the first thing I ask is, where are the children? Like, where are the social relationships with children? Are they at the state school down the street? And then you know, away from this movement? Or is that happening within the movement? Because of course, that colonial education or that hierarchical relationship with children, means that whatever you've created in this movement, or this community only lasts one generation, because those children have been raised with a lack of autonomy. So with all of that, I noticed that you've mentioned children a few times and I'm curious if you can share some examples of that relationship between adults and children in these spaces in these communities that you've studied and visited?

Raúl: 26:48

Are you a teacher carla?

carla: 26:50

No, I have definitely come at it from a more, I guess, popular education angle, maybe you could call it.

Raúl:: 26:53

Me too!

carla: 26:58

Yeah, yeah.

Raúl: 27:01

Yes, I see that in the Indigenous education for example, the children are the center of the education. Normally in the occidental school, the center is the teacher, or the state, because the teacher is to represent the state in the school. Okay? Then, the education is centered on the child's. Then what that means in the everyday school, in the everyday room, the teacher must not understand what the teacher is saying, is learning, or teaching, the children must have another time to discover that they know and they have the capability to do, to work with ideas, and with hands. If you think that the ideas are going into the person by the brains, you are completely wrong. If you work with your hands and with your brains with your entire body, then you can understand your body and the body of nature and from the other persons. And then when for example, only a little example, when the teacher come in these Zapatista schools for example, they have a problem on the table, on the board, they write out a question, but the response is not from one, from the children as individuals, the group must work together to respond. All the group as one person. Then what does this group learn? They learn to work in the common work. Learn how to work in common. We said in Spanish menga, it is the collective word. Ah, good, then what is really the difference between the Occidental and the Indigenous school? It's not that you know the names of the rivers, of the oceans, of the numbers, of the geography, or any specializations, but an Occidental kid learns the individual way, the individual triumph. And the Indigenous peoples learn the common work, how to work with others, wow, this is very, very interesting no? Because what you carla and me learned, and when we have eight years, these things that I learned, I forget. And it was not so interesting for our life. But when I learn to work with others… today it's very difficult in the big cities, working with others, relations with others, because the other is like an enemy. I need to be alone with my phone and my computer and the world is only this computer. Then if you learn to work with others, then you can be a different person. No? This is the first example. I saw in one Indigenous community in Chiapas a woman coming and she take t-shirts from a soccer team from Italy that was international from Milan and was very in solidarity with the Zapatistas communities. And then in a basketball court, in a basketball space they said to the children, you stay here in one corner of the basketball space and five or six t-shirts on the other side. And when I say “now,” you must run and first take the T-shirts, then this young woman says "now" and no one moves. And they see the children, 8, 5, 12 years old, then come together all take it by the hands, the T-shirts, and then decide to use all the t-shirts. The idea of me taking my t-shirt because I run quicker than you, this is not in the mind of these young kids, and this is the revolution against modernity illustrated and occidental point of view. When the occidental point of view wins, then we can't survive as humans. Some can survive, but not as humans, only like avatars, or like Superman. No. To survive humanity, we need to be in solidarity, we need to see that the other is my brother. When we all work as brothers then we are changing the world. These are the lessons I could explain about the Zapatista Uprising. It's not a political proposal. It's not a very large manifesto or book. No, no. Are very simple differences in everyday life.

carla: 35:06

I loved all of that. I really appreciate you using a concrete example of cooperation, of that heart centered care for one another from the children in the basketball court. Thank you. It's definitely been my experience working with young folks in a way where responsibility is at the center of their autonomy, like they are invited in to be part of the creation of the space and responsible for it. And there is this level of cooperation and solidarity, as you say that permeates. Yeah, but it's rare, you know? And particularly in North America. It's, and like you said in larger cities, it is the revolution. Where was I gonna go? I have so many questions, but I really respect your time. I did have some really concrete questions, but I would love to...

Raúl: 36:04

You spoke about Apo. No? Öcalan?

carla: 36:07

Yeah. Oh, do you want to talk about Öcalan too? Yes, that's really important. Yeah.

Raúl: 36:13

Yes, before speaking about this, I have forgotten to speak a little thing about autonomy.

carla: 36:21

Yes, please!

Raúl: 36:23

I see a difference in my idea about autonomy, and the European or North ideas of autonomy, and Indigenous or Zapatistas ideas of autonomy. One idea is to think of autonomy as an institution. We have an institution that works in an autonomy mode. But for the Zapatistas, autonomy is a practice. And you need the autonomy in all the levels. You need the autonomy for each child. Then in this school, the children work in an autonomous way. When they work with others. Or each family is autonomous, because they have self plantations, chickens to eat, they have all the things — coffee, corn, and vegetables in very little territory, or very little land. And then the community is also autonomous, because he has self land, common worlds, and so on, and vegetables and chicken and all the things. Then the autonomy is in all the levels. I can see that autonomy is a way of life. And then all our spaces must be autonomous. In the health, in the clinic, the little clinic, four persons. The persons like osteopaths, we said, and the person who works with the children, the moment they are born and the children comes to life. And the person who works with the traditional medicine, herbs and so on. The person who was with the occidental pills, they speak as pills. Then these four are autonomous, because the person who works with traditional herbs, they also have the plantation from these herbs, and so on. And then every space must be autonomous. The autonomous is not everything in the hike no? Like an institution. And then I'm not autonomous. So all our ways are. And this is a very different kind of characteristic of autonomy. Is an everyday practice. And every day, you begin from zero. But the idea of the Catholic Church is: my life is very difficult. I'm walking around the desert and it's so very, very heavy. And then I arrive in Paradise. No, autonomy is not a part of this. Every day when you stand up, you begin a new day, constructing autonomy and working in autonomy. It is very different. No? It's not a place where the individual or collective arrive, it is a kind of way of life. Then the other thing was Kurds. Yes?

carla: 40:38

Yeah, that'd be great.

Raúl: 40:40

I think the Kurdish movement has different interests for me. One interest is only the ideas of Öcalan, of Apo. No? I think the criticism from Apo to the Marxist heritage is too heavy, is too deep. And it's necessary that any persons do this. Because the left today, also the revolutionaries today forget the auto critics, the self critics, they only critique capitalism, the state, the others, but not ourselves. Mr. Wallerstein spoke in the last piece some days before he died: the only thing we can do as movements to change the world now is to struggle with ourselves. With themselves, the movements. Because when we repeat the history, we don't change anything. And then Apo made this in the first books with a very important critique to economic, to the idea that capitalism is an economy. He said capitalism is a power, a special power, the state power. Of course, it'd be a capitalist economy. But this is not the center. The center is one kind of power. When Apo is very critical with patriarchy, in the movements. And the second thing is that the women's movement, the genealogy movement, is also an ideology and a practice, very important for change. Not only the women's, but only the place of the men. I have read a pamphlet for about 50 pages. The title is "Kill the Macho" , so to kill the machi. And then the Wharf Academy explained that every year, this academy, there are women there, who work with men, groups of men for two or three months. Teaching the man and discussing with the man, the ego, the machismo and all the life of the men around the world. We are a problem. And it's the only example I know that the men are involved with in the feminist movement. But I don't know if I must speak on this, but I will say some things. I have a lot of friends, women, academics, feminists, that they build a bubble, a boat, “we are feminist, pure, not contaminated. And we are the real feminists here.” And normal women from the peripheries, European peripheries, old, and Black or Latin and so on. With our studies, no, no these women know, only we illustrated. And then this doesn't change the world. I love bell hooks. The critique from bell hooks to these women, or the Combahee Collective Group. No? They are Black feminists, some lesbians, they make a heavy critique to the white academic women that think they are in the paradise of the feminists? No, no, no. We need to work with the men, with the not advanced women, the not Vanguard women, the normal women from the peripheries, and so on. And I have learned this from Rojava and the current women's movement. And this is very important because this other feminist movement is not anti-capitalist. No, it's feminist but not really anti patriarchal. But today, you can't be anti patriarchal, if you are not also anti capitalist and anti colonialist. Then I think it's a very important discussion about how to change the place from the women and the men. We must be involved, and we must discuss our ego. And I see some women, academic women friends, have the same ego as me, like a man. We must discuss, we must struggle against our ego. If we don't do this, we can't change anything.

carla: 47:15

Bravo! I love it. That's a really good distinction about Rojava and the women working with the men, I couldn’t agree more. And also bell hooks was definitely someone who inspired me on how to show up in community as a decolonial feminist, because it is about social relationships, again. She was one of the only feminists of her time who centered children as well. Because she was like, that's where it all gets seeded, in the relationship with children. Especially the patriarchy, from the patriarchal parents is what she called it. You ended your book with a breathtaking epilogue titled Sowing Without Reaping, obviously about the Zapatistas and I am 100% with you that they still provide an incredible amount of inspiration and a compass for us to find our way on this anti capitalist, anti colonial, anti hierarchical pathway. And so as the storm rages on, can you share with us some of the concrete ways they still inspire you? And just the whole idea of sowing without reaping, and anything else you want to say about that?

Raúl: 48:46

Now, I return to Chiapas. This year, I will return. I was there last year. And I am learning, I am reading and studying the last 20 communicates from the Zapatistas. I don't understand them all, but I see they are working to survive the collapse. They think that it's coming, a very heavy collapse against the people, against the normal people. I remember Mr. Zuckerberg, he bought an island in Hawaii to survive the collapse. But we pueblos, we need to survive in collective in the collapse. This is not an individual way. And then when they are talking about the collapse, they are preparing the basis and the communities to survive or to live in the collapse. And also they are making a new structure. Because they think — this is very nice, they had the boards and the autonomous municipalities. But they said this was very nice, because it was a horizontal structure, but back in the everyday life they work on a pyramid. And this is in two ways very interesting. First one, because they said, the structure is not so important as how the relations work. And then the second thing, they said, we have the pyramid and we need to cut the top. And then when they have one board, they have dozens of groups of local governments. And this is really interesting, because normally, when the revolutionaries build anything, they conserve this. And then 20 years ago, or 30 years ago, they built the autonomous municipalities and the boards, and then say, no, this can't work. Because we need them 120 years after the collapse, this new world must be a pyramid. And then now we cut the top. Wow! This is really revolutionary, because the other way is conservative. I build a party, a hierarchical party and I conserve this part. I take the power or build popular power, for example, and I conserve this power. Then they are making anything beautiful, I think, in Chapas, at this moment. And I will reflect more about this, I will think about this, I will receive it, I will study more about this new way of the Zapatistas movement. And I'm very happy that they understand this new moment of the two big problems: wars around the world and climate change. And these two things are working together against the people, against the pueblos. And then they understand this moment, and they change the organization to survive the next year or decades.

carla: 53:13

Yeah, thank you so much. I really loved what was in the book, but I'm really looking forward to seeing what you experience and uncover and share with the world. And like, I think what was really exciting for me was to see how they were continuing to change, and they have to, as you said. I love that piece about autonomy being every day you wake up and you start at zero. Like, of course the Zapatistas have to change constantly and walk with change because it's constantly changing, the world around them and the relations. So like wrapping this show up and kind of going back to the theme of the show. Are there any questions that are kind of occupying your time right now that are bubbling up, that you would be willing to...? What I want to kind of do with the show is to show people out there that you know, we're all struggling with questions and sometimes don't even know what the questions are yet on the horizon. But I kind of want… someone that is as thoughtful, and well thought out, and does deep research and thinking, you know? What are you grappling with today? If you're willing to share.

Raúl: 54:26

This period I'm looking for spirituality. But not new age, because last year I spent some days in Guarani in Brazil, a Guarani community, and then they have a home, a big home, where every day they sing and they make the rituals. And it's a house not from religion, it is spirituality. And then I discover (I'm too old to discover anything new by going to school for this) that spirituality is the center of the community. I thought before because I am trained in the Marxist ideas, ideology, and I thought before that the key of the community was the common land. No? The property, the common property, but now, I discover that the key of the community is spirituality. And then I saw this in the Guaranis peoples pueblos in Brazil, I saw the same in March in the Garifunas pueblos in Honduras. And I'm working in this way. And I'm discussing, and I'm interchanging ideas and points of view of my friends in Chiapas, about the centrality of spirituality in resisting capitalism. This is my work today, and I think in the next years. Because in the critical thought, spirituality is not important in the critical thought Marxist, Anarchist, and every day, every thought, they think that, like Marx, that Religion is the opium of the Pueblos. And when I speak about spirituality, I must say, it's not the same as the church, it's not the same as the religion. The religion is a hierarchical organization, the church. This is a practice. It's the difference between institution and practice. It could have the same name, but it's very different. And now, I'm working with spirituality. And it's my work for the next years.

carla: 57:34

Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you for sharing, I can't wait to see what you come up with. I just want to share that that is kind of where I've gotten in the last year too. And it's been influenced by some Indigenous friends and people who, in North America, who are really pushing against the hegemonic ideas of modernity by saying, you know, the late Klee Benally just wrote a book called "No Spiritual Surrender". And it seems to be the root and it's non religious, it's non new age. And I keep saying this to my friends, that there's something about spirituality, I've been obsessed with it for the last four years, there's something about spirituality as a way to move away from that ideology in a deep, profound way. So I'm so excited to hear what you create and your own journey. And I think it's really connected to autonomy and all that. So thank you. What a beautiful way to wrap this session. Is there anything else that you would like to say that we didn't cover?

Raúl: 58:41

It was very nice speaking with you. I'm very grateful for this interview. And we could speak for days perhaps. This moment is very nice. When we spoke and the interchange, and so on, and I am very very grateful for you.

carla: 59:05

Yeah, me too Raúl. Well, thank you so much for being here.